Trust in Turmolic Times – David Penglase

Trust in Turmolic Times – David Penglase

Trust in relationships is vital. 

Not having trust makes relationships, of any type, at best challenging, at worst impossible! With the change our world experienced in 2020 as a result of COVID-19 the need for trust in business and life relationships has skyrocketed.  When our relationships lack trust, our productivity reduces in all areas of life as we evaluate what is happening around us and take time to consider the impact of choices and decisions.

In this episode I chat with Behavioural Scientist, speaker, educator and author David Penglase about how we build trust in these turmolic times.


Donna Hanson: In this Expert Insights episode we speak with David Penglase.
David a behavioural scientist with degrees in wait for it, Human Resources Development and Business and MBA, a Masters in Professional Ethics, a Masters of Science in Applied Positive Psychology. He’s also the author of five books, including The Art and Science of Building Customer Trust and Intentionomics.

He’s an avid fisherman a king guitarist, but more importantly a really well-respected professional speaker and educator, welcome David, thanks for coming on the show today.

David Penglase: So lovely to be speaking with you Donna.

Donna Hanson: Now before we start I’d like to know, how did you end up honing down your interest in business to the importance of trust? I’m guessing as a kid you probably didn’t wake up one morning thinking, gee, I’m passionate about trust?

David Penglase: You’re absolutely right. As a kid, it was the last thing on my mind and I probably shouldn’t go into how I was as a kid in terms of my trustworthiness, I’m not sure! Yeah, it is an interesting sort of way where I’ve landed on. It was a series of specific academic ventures really. What happened was when I was doing my first degree which, as you just mentioned as a degree in business, but it was majoring in the psychology of adult learning human resource development. One of the principles of adult learning was the importance of the learner trusting the content, trusting the educator, but also trusting the outcome.

So one of the things that I really started to study while I was studying that degree was this connection between the learner and the teacher and that whole trust thing from there.

And then when I went into do my MBA where I focused on leadership and trust so that led me to that you see. So, so all of a sudden academically and that was back in my 20s. So then in my 30s when I did my MBA are around leadership and trust.

I got really quite upset during my MBA, because in the entire MBA course Donna you are ready for this. There was not one topic on ethics. And now, again, this is this was back in my 30s, which is some 30 years.

Donna Hanson: Last week

David Penglase: Yeah, I know thank you but that really disturbed me. So when I was looking at trust in leadership. Leadership trust worthiness actually at the end of the MBA. I went and sourced another degree because I was still there was something that was still missing. And so I did this edgy. Again, as you mentioned, I did a master’s degree in professional ethics and this is where it all started to come together for me.

As I was studying the philosophy side of ethics Aristotle was one of the key ones that we were you know we were researching and these words I just become a father for the second time. And these words written by Aristotle jumped off a page to me. And what he said was that actions and behaviours are our morals shown in conduct.

That everything we say in everything we do. Scenes loud and clear messages to the world about who we are and what we represent and this, this became a real applied thing for me, our morals shown in conduct our ethics shown in conduct our values, shown in conduct and it was while I was studying that that master’s degree I fell across this book written by a lady by the name of

Elizabeth Anscombe and the book was called or titled intention. Yeah, this is where it becomes really interesting well before. So this is she wrote this book in the 50s and this is before. Well, probably before Simon Sinek was even born.

Here’s what she said. whenever we think about intention. We not just to think about what we intend to do or how we intend to do it, but we must give consideration to why we’re doing it. Sound familiar

Donna Hanson: Oh yeah, very familiar. I wonder if that was on Simon Sinek reading list.

David Penglase: don’t know but it just goes to show how solid and the way that he encapsulated that was just genius. But as I’m researching that what I saw, I finished that degree. And then I started this a master’s degree in applied positive psychology. Now I know it sounds like I’m always at university. It’s a lifelong learner. But there was still something missing for me because when I looked at what and the how and the why. It seemed to me there was a missing link with this.

And as I was studying the applied positive psychology degree. What I really focused in on was this what I call the fourth element of intention. And so this is where it all came together, Donna. That the core of everything there was still something missing. So when we look at intention. It’s not just what we do or how we do it.

It’s more than just knowing why we do it. And this fourth element which is and we might touch on this as we chat this fourth element that I started to really research was the impact

That our intentions have on others, not just on us. So when you add those four together. What we do? Then how we do it? Why we do it? But then you really focusing on but what impact is this going to have on all stakeholders? Now what you’ve got is a really dynamic way of looking at intentional trust. And so that’s how the whole thing came together.

Donna Hanson: It’s far more holistic, isn’t it? And rounded, whereas the, the other three elements are a little bit more logical, but with anything related to trust an intention, there’s an element of emotion attached to it.

David Penglase: Oh, yeah, yeah. But the other thing to Donna and this is this is where the science becomes really important that I can have a why I can have a really big why but my big why my actually be about me.

Donna Hanson: Huh.

David Penglase: And if my big Why is driven by what I can get for me and not what I can do for others, then other people pick up on that truth.

And so when we start to look at intentionality. And when we think about some of the stuff that’s happened you know pre covered with the Royal Commission, for example, into the finance industry banking in superannuation, all that kind of stuff that

People were clear on what their intention was with their intention had nothing to do about the impact it was going to have on customers. Share it was all it was all about them. And about nothing court.

Donna Hanson: Yeah inwards facing as opposed to outwards. You got it, yeah.

Awesome, that’s great. Thank you! And yeah, I can see how the curiosity factor would have grown because I certainly am a lifelong learner as well. In some in the technology space because the never stops.

David Penglase: No, I get it.

Donna Hanson: Now it’s strange times at the moment with them a global pandemic that depending on when people are watching this, we might be sort of easing our way out of it, but it’s going to be a long time coming what have you observed during this time from a trust perspective about how leaders and how people in a dealing with this globally, you know,

David Penglase: One of the biggest things that’s happened because of this is there has been an almost imposed trust that’s because so many people were forced to work remotely. The trust that leaders have had for many years, or the lack of trust that leaders have had for many years in letting their people work remotely.

Donna, you got to come into the office. I don’t trust you. You’ve got clock in at nine and leave at five or as it’s over the years, it became eight and six. And you know, that’s another story for another day. But, but this what I refer to as imposed trust is a really interesting thing to realize it’s changed the way the world will be forever. In terms of the way we work and what we know from the research and this is some research has just happened recently.

That what we know now is when a leader has struggled with working remotely, they will struggle to trust their people to work remotely, but we’re a leader has found the remote working quite successful for them that they’ve been comfortable and confident with it.

They are more likely to trust their remote workers because of that experience. So that’s one of the key shifts that has happened and will change the way we work because all of a sudden, you know, just before we started Donna that we were chatting about my son who’s over in Sweden. Now he has been working remotely.

Before convert it. But now he’s working remotely almost full time. Where was, only part time before. So this is something that we’re going to be watching this idea of an imposed trust has actually created a way for us to move forward and be able to work differently. So that’s one of the first things. The second thing that I’ve been watching around trust, especially is this whole fake news thing. Who, what can we trust? Who can we trust? And so many people now are getting there. If you like their news feed through social media.

But interestingly, what we know is most people also know most people also know that what they see on social media may be not true. And yet that’s where they’re getting their source of news from. It’s a real. It’s a real paradox so they two are the main things that I’m seeing around the whole trust issue.

Donna Hanson: I think what you say about leaders is quite logical and it comes to the principles of adult learning in that you know how I learn is how I often think other people learn. And so if I’m effective working remotely as leader. I assume you’re going to be just as effective. But that’s not necessarily the case. So that opens up a big can of worms for leaders, doesn’t it?

David Penglase: Yeah. What does it? It’s also a new skill set and this is look as an adult educator, you know, corporate in, especially in the corporate space. This is not easy. I mean, what we’re doing now. Donna isn’t easy. This is a whole new skill set. The way that we meet and the way that we talk. I mean, the fact that I’ve got to look at a camera, rather than look at your eyes on the screen that’s a new skill.

The way that we’re going to be meeting with our, our teams remotely are in the future, not just now there’s a new skills that leaders are going to need to embrace get good at and get good at quick because it’s now. And so there’s, again, this whole idea of can I trust myself as a leader to step up into that space as well. So it’s an interesting times. You’re absolutely right. For leaders.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, and I think a lot of the time to, you know, sometimes leaders may feel that they learning stops when they reach to reach that point and their job is to fade down their expertise but realistically, this is challenging them to continue to learn and like you said, embrace because you either change or you’re forced to change. Or you moved out. Because you’re not getting the results that you needed because the measurement tools you can no longer respond to

David Penglase: Yeah, a bit. Now, one should think that this is easy. You know, because it for a lot of people. It’s a real struggle and I, I’ve got to say that’s where and we might talk about this, you know, as we go forward, but why, one of the most important lessons, I think with all of this in the corporate space, especially, but in any business small business, medium, large, Is it what’s going on here is a path from the horrible deaths and an illness that you know globally. We’re experiencing. Apart from that, what this is. And again, it comes down to. It’s got a lot to do with, you know, this concept of trust intention is that people matter. And I know that that’s it sounds so try because we can read on a lot of corporate their websites, but also in the is it’s that the customers are important and they are people are important. Well, right now we’re really finding out whether that’s true or not.

Donna Hanson: Yet because it’s the road.

David Penglase: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Donna Hanson: Strange question, David. But how do you establish trust, particularly in business. I’m guessing it’s sort of a building blocks type process in much the same way as you build respect with somebody you work with

David Penglase: Yeah okay so let’s explore this and this could take us anywhere. Um,
First of all, and I know you and I both use the word trust in the world right now. Trust is not the issue. Its trustworthiness. Are we worthy of trust and so your question around how do you go about building trust? This is the right question.

Unfortunately, what a lot of organizations are doing because of what they’ve done in the past, is how we re-build trust? Now what that means is that they’ve stuffed up they’d made some kind of mistake either intentionally or unintentionally. We’ll talk about that in a minute. But, um, in, in terms of the building blocks of trust. There are some steps. And we know this. This is it, although it’s quite practical There’s some real science behind all of this. And the first step towards trust is to get clear about your intentions. Now this becomes so important.

When I work with organizations, especially the leaders and but also their teams, I get them to focus on three lenses of trust.

And the first lens of trust is self-trust because you know if you think back through all of the philosophy that I know you studied and that we hear things like, you know, start with start with yourself and then you can move on to other people know thyself all that stuff so self-trust is a lot of things, but we can narrow it down to the confidence that we have in who we are? What we are? And why we are? But it’s also having the control the discipline to manage ourselves and our environment as well. So we need to look through that first lens of self-trust can I trust myself. Because what I know from the research that I’ve done is that if I asked most audiences do they trust themselves nearly everybody puts their hand up and say, Yeah, of course I do, but then when I asked them, has anyone ever let themselves down

Well, it shifts a little bit and then looking around the room to say he’s going to put their hand up and people sort of start to put the hand. Yeah, you know, whether it’s that extra glass of red wine, or in some cases bottle. Or whether it’s the extra chocolate or whatever. We know that we didn’t have that conversation that we needed to have we’ve let ourselves down so the first lens of trust yourself trust. But then there’s another lens and that second lens is the courage that we require and the collaboration mind-set and skill set that we require to trust others. And this is what we’ve already started to talk about Donna, you know, can we trust others to work.

Remotely can I trust others in my team to have my back. Even though we’re not around each other anymore. Can I trust this other person to complete the task on time, because if they don’t, my integrity is at risk or the project is at risk? So it’s this courage, because there’s a risk that the courage and the collaboration to trust others and unfortunately what some people have adopted is almost like you know, if you want to trust somebody just trust him. Well, sure. I kind of agree with that. But blind trust is just dangerous trust you want to hold people accountable for any trust that you give them because it is a pretty important thing to give someone your trust.

And so what you need to do is not just blindly trust them and hope that they make the deadline. You stay in contact and this is the language of trust, you’re not looking over their shoulder. You’re saying, hey, is there anything I can do and you know how things are progressing. Can I help you in any way. These are the kinds of collaborative questions that leaders need to be asking of their teams and team members need to be asking each other. So the third lens of trust, which is really what we’re here to talk about. But all of these are important.

Is the lens of trustworthiness, or our earning others trust and this is three things. It’s a combination of our character, of our competence, but also our consistency in the way that we demonstrate our character and their competence, you see, you can be a person. Um, I don’t mean you Donna but anybody could be a person of you know, good character. And look, that’s another rabbit whole we could go down into what does that actually mean because character is demonstrated. It’s not just something we have it’s demonstrate it. But you could be a person of good character.

But you may not have the competence to do what I need you to do so, therefore, I won’t trust you even know you may be a person of integrity. But you could also have all the competence that are required the resources, the products or services. The, whatever it is. But the way that you do what you do gives me a question about your character or your culture, corporate wise. There are therefore, I won’t trust you. So it’s the consistency of those two things. So just having good character every now and then and just having competence every now and then isn’t enough.

We have to be consistently demonstrating so when we look at the world through those three lenses of trust. Now the sudden we can have much more meaningful conversations But then we start to apply what are the steps towards trust.

And that starts with our intention. And so our intention.

Like I mentioned earlier on, is a clarity. Of what we want for other people, not just what we want from them, or for ourselves. And look, there’s a whole bunch of science around this that so compelling.

And you, you’ll need to guide me, here Donna, because I can talk. As you can tell, I can talk about this, you know, in depth, but there’s something I really do want to share and that is this that when we do look at especially in the way the world is at the moment where there’s a lot of people working remotely. This first step intention being clear about what you want for other people. You see there’s kind of an altruistic element to that Donna. Did you get what I mean?

Donna Hanson: Yeah, absolutely. Basically at the moment.

David Penglase: Yeah, so, so if here’s what we know from the science and this is what really excites me. But people that work remotely have to have self-trust.

Donna Hanson: Absolutely.

David Penglase: Okay, so they need to look at themselves through this third lens so I’m talking about self-trust the confidence that we have in who we are.

And the control that we have in what we do but then when you jump to earning others trust, we’re looking at ourselves through that same lens as well, can I trust myself. Can I earn my own trust? Have I got the character? Have I got the competence?

And I’m demonstrating that consistently. So what we know from the sciences. We need people to be trusting themselves when they’re working remotely.

The language around that scientifically is they need to have a sense of self determination and some wonderful research by Becky and Ryan around this.

However, he’s the connection that I want to make, because one of the questions that I’m constantly being asked is how we build self-trust in our employees.

So that when they are working remotely that they feel proud about who they are and that they do have this confidence and control. Well here’s

Why the first step towards trust starts with intention, what we know from the science is this that when people have what I refer to and applied positive intention applied, meaning I don’t just have an intention to do good for other people, but I actually do good for other

Donna Hanson: Deliberately promise.

David Penglase: Delivery. Yeah. So what we know is people that have this and do this so that they genuinely have a customer focus and they live up to that customer focus. What we know is

There is a an association, a strong association in it, building their sense of autonomy which is one of the three core components of self-determination. So, to start trust in any organization, you’ve got to start with self-trust but you’ve got to start with intention. Am I clear about and am I genuine about wanting to make the world a better place.

That’s really and I know that sounds like I’m on a mountain. And, you know, singing hymns and stuff but what I’m really talking about here is this genuine

This genuine approach to our lives personal and professional about when I’m here.

I want to, I want to do good work. I want to do something that makes a difference for my customers for my clients for my colleagues for my leader for whoever it is, because what we know is most of the time, not always, but when we do great work for other people make their lives better.

We get a lot more in return as well. So we start with intention. If I’m clear about what I want for other people, not just what I want from them. Now I can get clear about what I can and what I cannot promise them. And this is one of the biggest mistakes in the trust steps that people have in the corporate world. They make promises they can’t keep and at a micro level. This can be something as simple as, I’ll give you a call, but you don’t, I’ll get back to you next week. But you don’t have that these micro moments of trust these moments of trust, where people over a period of time, they start to get in their mind. I get your truth or I get who you are you say all the right things, but you let me you’re constantly letting me down. So when we’re clear about what we can and what we cannot promise. Now we can sit and manage expectations. So the first step Donna, is intention.

Now once we’re clear on intention, we can take the second step and get clear about what we can and what we can’t promise and once we clear about that. Then we can take the third step. On the actions intentional actions to fulfil those promises. And so this is why these are sequential, but sometimes you got to go backwards and forwards and that’s okay up and he understands but what this the main thing about our actions is that we are transparent in our actions, not only do we need to be doing good things we need to be seen to be doing good things. And when we, do that, then we take that the next step, which are the results that we achieve intentional. Results and if we’re not getting the results achieving the results that we intended. We’ve got to take a step back to look at our actions. And if we’re not doing the things that we needed there. We got to take a step back and look what our promises were what we can and can’t promise.

And if we’re not doing that right. We’ve got to go all the way back to do we really have a strong intention to make life better for our customers, our clients, our suppliers whoever it is, because then the final step, we go intentions to promises to actions to results. The next step is trustworthiness and that’s the whole element of relationships at work and so then you know when people start looking at how do I build trust. That’s the proactive method of building trust, rather than were a number of corporates have found themselves right now. And that is reactively looking at how we regain trust. And let me tell you, regaining trust is much harder than proactively earning building and maintaining trust

Donna Hanson: So Here’s some things that I thought about and observed as you were going through all of that. Um, first of all, there’s a real spotlight. On self-trust at the moment I the current environment isn’t there. So in the past it, and it had maybe been a bit esoteric the right word. Just loosen but now the spotlights on it. You know, if you’re working from home.

The expectation is, you can get away with not doing something for a day or two, but the longer you’re working from home. The more you have to deliver on results. So that requires you to have self-trust so we finding people who you know you and I would have made who said, oh no, look, I could never work from home now finding that they have no choice but to do it and they have to create a structure for themselves to be able to deliver on the on the things that they’ve done. And the other thing that made me think about was the great book by young Coulson was at moments of trophy.
Scandinavian Airlines and how you know the connection to trust and how those moments of truth that he talks about in that book and how they are quite obviously to the building of trust and brand. And then the third thing that I was thinking of is, you know, there’s a lot of organizations where during this time you look at how they’re becoming a little more showing much more empathy to their customers are more proactive and on the front foot so companies like Insurance companies where you would not necessarily expect them to come to the fore and be supportive and forthcoming but offering to whole payments to push things back banks going.

Let’s put a hold on mortgages and things like that. And, you know, I’m not concerned at this point about what happens behind that, because that’s another story. But just being able to demonstrate that empathy has huge brand value in a time like this, doesn’t it?

David Penglase: Yeah it does I mentioned before, my favourite quote from Aristotle yeah actions and behaviours are morals shown in conduct. My language around that Donna is people will get your truth. Over time your intentions, your promises your actions and your results will either promote you as being trustworthy or to expose you as being not and I think what you mentioned there about you know, these decisions that some of these ladies in the corporations are making and just not as my language around that, too. I don’t talk about corporations making decisions because corporation is done.

If the leaders in their people within the organizations and this was one of the biggest findings from the Royal Commission into banking and finance and superannuation was that it highlighted that even though we’re talking about certain big brand organizations? It was people that were making these decisions and so we sort of lovely loop back into that what this horrible pandemic has caused a spotlight and I love your word around that it has it’s caused a spotlight.

And like I mentioned earlier on imposed trust, it’s caused a spotlight on self-trust it absolutely has.

Donna Hanson: Hmm, and um you know that that just popped out at me as you were talking about that, you know, where it could be swept under the carpet or you could get away with something you can’t because you were exposed for all you are. And people have to accept you warts and also to stay because there’s plenty of meetings.

Go around the internet where people are trying to have, you know, serious business meetings and the kids are playing in the background or a cat jumps on somebody’s lap and it, what it does is makes people a bit real. And I think when I think that also contributes to trust because if somebody is of the feeling of, you know, I’m warming, but I’m not quite sure. And then something that makes them look human comes to the fore that can really change someone’s interpretation.

David Penglase: It’s an interesting one. You’re absolutely right. One of the things that we are seeing is that people that are working remotely and doing these kinds of meetings. Sometimes plan sometimes unplanned. Their part of their personal life, which would normally never be shown is shown and it’s kind of like this back of room front of room idea.

Again, it brings back, I think. No, I know. It brings back the reality that this is really all about people. That’s what this world is about, you know, everything else supports or doesn’t. The relationships that we have an alliance and without the relationships that we have in our lives, things just don’t get done. And I think that’s, again, you know, the spotlight is on people and it’s on relationships and it’s on humanity and where that takes us like it’s all, it’s all good at the moment. So let’s not

Donna Hanson: Understand what you mean. It’s all it all seems to be operating in the moment.

David Penglase: Yeah, people are saying the right things. Yeah, many people, not everybody. We’ve seen examples of, you know, people just not being at their best, but there is this lovely focus on humanity at the moment where that goes long term and I’m hopeful.

But I’m also cynical about it that it’s so easy to slip back once there’s some new kind of normal, whatever that means. But that, you know, I just hope that we do keep focused on the importance of looking after our customers looking after our colleagues looking after our minds.

Donna Hanson: Because when you do that, it should all just come should well

David Penglase: Yeah, I think when relationships are going well in our lives. Pretty much everything else is going okay as well. That’s professionally and personally, you know, if you’re working in a toxic relationship, you know, working in a toxic work Environment where relationships are great. It’s not a good place to be now wants to be in that. So, and I think it’s the same with, you know, this whole self-trust you know if you’re struggling with who you are working remotely is going to be not easy. Not easy at all.

Donna Hanson: Know, that’s for sure. So, you know, we’re fast running out of time. And I know you could talk a leg off the chair just too much the same way as I could. I have one final question before we start to wrap up. What do you see happens when trust breaks down and I know we’ve sort of alluded to it in various parts? But what do you see happen.

David Penglase: A friend of mine, Vanessa Hall wrote a book called the truth about trust and she has this lovely saying that trust is fragile and I really like that that we see trust. This is where it all comes back to intention Donna and it is just such a simple idea. But once you really get it that I can make a mistake, an unintentional mistake.

Didn’t mean to do it. And with Lizzie and I, my wife Lee’s you know if I make a mistake. Liz knows that was never intention. I even because of the relationship, we’ve had for you know 40 years. Um, but if I make an intentional mistake.

We and we’ve had examples of those where people they know that they are doing the wrong thing. But they hope that they don’t get caught. Let’s, think of some names Lance Armstrong, the world cyclist.

Mm hmm. You know, he just he knew what he was doing was wrong. It was an intentional action when you look at some of the stuff that came out of the Royal Commission people knew that they were charging dead people for services that, you know, and so these are intentional actions. So when I make a mistake a genuine mistake that was unintentional. Trust might be slightly hurt.

But not irreparably damaged. But if I constantly make that mistake. There’s a question about my integrity.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, and people see a sense if it is an intentional. I believe people get a sense of whether you’re authentic or not in your in your apology in what you say? And how you express yourself? And not like you reading from a key card.

David Penglase: Yeah, apologizing in hindsight Is when you’re apologizing in hindsight, before you get caught that takes courage apologizing in hindsight, after you get caught. You’re doing it because you got caught. Yeah. And so, and I know we’re running out of time. But I want to this. This is the most powerful question that any of us can ever ask about any action that we’re about to take or a decision that we’re about to Mike. It’s called the light of day test, Donna.

And I encourage everybody, me included to listen to the value of this question. The question is this, with this action. I’m about to take or this decision that I’m about to make. Would I make the decision or take the action. It was held up in the light of day for all to see now, this is bringing us all the way back to

This idea of self-trust, trust in others and earning others trust, would I make the decision, take the action. If my family knew about it would I be proud? If my customers knew about it would I be proud? Would they applaud me if my suppliers knew about it would I be proud? Of my colleagues knew about it, would they be proud? If my leader knew about it, would they be proud? And it’s this focus on our decisions and our actions proactively rather than reactively that allows us to earn build and maintain trust as opposed to reactively try and rebuild trust.

Donna Hanson: Wow, yeah, I’ve really loved our conversation today, David. And as I said, you know, we could both take the leg of chair. Let’s be honest, and I mentioned two of your books at the start, but you’ve got five

So I mentioned Intentionomics and the art and science of building customer trust I hear there’s a new book about to be released. Can you tell me a little about that one?

David Penglase: Yeah, it’s, um, it’s been a work in progress now for about 18 months but reality, probably for all of my adult life. Maybe all of my life. I’m the books working title and we’re in the final edit stage now is living in the light of day. There’s a little segue. Thank you.

And what it’s basically doing is, is having this conversation that you and I are having it’s bringing the world of philosophy of Science of applied positive psychology of trust intention and it’s just posing the question and giving some answers but evidence based answers around how do we truly be at our best because it’s so easy to say, you know, you’ve got to have a positive mental attitude.

That’s just such an old idea because there’s some really serious stuff going on right now and we need more than a positive mental attitude we need to be able to find meaning. In our lives about what makes us the best version of ourselves and what typically makes us the best version of ourselves is when we do good for other people which brings us all the way back to our intention. So that’s what the books about it’s asking the question, how do we be the best version of ourselves and does a little wind through this this world of intention of trust and applied positive psychology as well.

Donna Hanson: Awesome. So it sounds like a nice final point where you’re taking a whole lot of your other books and bring it down to do still you’re learning. So if people wanted to want that book. And save themselves all the time, money, and effort associated with all your degrees. There’s your book on your answer in one

David Penglase: Well, that’s the idea. I don’t have all the answers, but posing some questions with some answers is a pretty neat way to go. So if people want to find out.
Anything more about that if they just google David Penglase that sounds just so weird for me to say that but that’s, the easiest way and you know my website, there’s, you know, newsletters and you know there’s a Facebook page and there’s a LinkedIn page, but use my name use my name that sounds like a song.

Donna Hanson: Awesome. It will be down the bottom of the banner just there. So, people won’t get it wrong, that’s for sure.

Donna Hanson: Look, David on loved having a chat with you today. It’s always good to catch up thanks so very much for your time and your insights on trust.

Donna Hanson: Thanks everyone for joining us for this expert insights episode. Until next time, this is Australian productivity and technology expert Donna Hanson have an amazing week!

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