Making Bigger Promises to Scarier People in Business – Jennifer Einolf

Making Bigger Promises to Scarier People in Business – Jennifer Einolf

It’s easy to roll along in life and get by.  Being productive and living a life that has meaning for you often means stepping outside our comfort zone and challenging ourselves to become the person we want to be.  Often gaining the clarity to see what’s next can be hard when you are “sitting” in your life.

In this episode I chat with Clarity Coach, Jennifer Einolf.  Jennifer is a Newfield Network trained Ontological coach (listen in to find out EXACTLY what that is) who loves working with clients through her Prospects of Possibility transformation keys to help clients realise their boldest future.

To find out more about Jennifer visit, www.boldwhisper.com

To find out more about Ontological visit www.ontologicalcoaching.com.au

Transcription

Donna Hanson: Hi I’m Donna Hanson in this expert insights episode we speak with Jennifer Einolf. Jennifer is a clarity coach who works with clients to navigate through her prospects of possibility transformation keys to realize their boldest possible future. She’s a new field network trained. Now I’m hoping I pronounce this correctly ontological coach. I want to find out exactly what that means. But I love her philosophy of the world is busy telling you what’s wrong and trying to sell you this solution to your deficit.

And she believes I don’t think you’re deficient. You’re amazing. I’m offering to partner with you gifting the world with a fire hose of your wonderfulness me just so love that. Hi, Jennifer welcome.

Jennifer Einolf: Hi, thank you. It’s so nice to be here.

Donna Hanson: And before we start have got to get this question out of the way. What is an Ontological Coaching? Did I say it right?

Jennifer Einolf: You said it absolutely correctly. So it’s a big word. But what an ontological coach does is we look at being and doing

And so we have all had this experience that we take an action and we get a result we don’t like. And so we take another action and we get the same bad result. But it was a different action. So what’s going on?

So Ontological Coaching is about understanding that it’s the way we see the world that impacts what we even think is possible and that impacts what actions we take and that impacts the results we get so I work with my clients to go further upstream to habits of language and the way we relate to our emotions and even our habits in our body and how that impacts how we see the world and we work towards that aha moment when all of a sudden that thing that’s been hiding in plain sight. This whole time. It’s suddenly there. And then we figure out how you’re going to take advantage of that. Now you have new possibilities and that’s basically what Ontological Coaching is a big word for the fact that in our life we’re going through this tumble of being and doing all the time.

Donna Hanson: It sounds a bit like what I like to call the BFO the blinding flash of the obvious and to use the old analogy. You know, sometimes you just can’t see the forest for the trees. And I know with my clients I talk a lot about sometimes you need a fresh set of eyes to look at something and say something that’s right in front of you, the potential that something has an end in a lot of instances. And I’m sure we’ll get into this, people probably already done a lot of the hard work. It’s just the little pieces that they need tweaking to really lift everything

Jennifer Einolf: Absolutely, absolutely. This observation that we have of the world. I mean, it comes from everything we are and everything we’ve learned and maybe we learned lessons that maybe the conclusion we drew doesn’t serve us in this moment. And so how do we take that and rearrange it a little bit, but yeah, you’re not having to remake yourself like, like you said in the piece that you quoted from my website. I already think you’re amazing. So let’s go unleash that

Jennifer Einolf: Let’s go make that available.

Donna Hanson: Jenni, thanks.

Jennifer Einolf: You are amazing.

Donna Hanson: It is just the word on to colour until, until like that’s going to be fun. All through I interview. Did that come from the new field network or is that a lot. Could I go to the dictionary and actually find that word?

Jennifer Einolf: It’s actually available in the dictionary. No, it’s, the name that they chose for a deeply philosophical approach that they chose to use a new field. The idea is that we need a new field of learning that what got us here won’t get us there, and that the world is in love. It has a love affair with answers but what really moves us as powerful questions.

Donna Hanson: Yeah

Jennifer Einolf: This new field this new way of looking at it. Sorry, go ahead.

Donna Hanson: No one’s going to say, and if we don’t ask the right questions. We never going to get the right answer. But you know, I’m looking for answers. I guess is human nature, but reverse engineering and thinking about, well, what’s the question I’m actually trying to answer. I mean you know that that’s just too easy to be right, isn’t Jennifer?

Jennifer Einolf: It’s not so I have a background in interior design and I’m in love with the design cycle that’s a big part of what I do. And the first stage of the design cycle. Well, the first stage is that something shows up and it provokes change or either answering a challenge or your rising to an opportunity, but then you have to, you have to perceive, where am I? What is this question? What’s in my way? And what is there for me to use? And it’s amazing how often we want to jump straight to brainstorming or straight to implementation and we’re not even sure what we’re solving for whether that’s a group trying to solve a problem or even an individual trying to have something be different in their life. There are questions that will never be answered in our lifetimes. And that doesn’t mean they’re not valuable questions and there are questions that if you rush to answer them you are cutting off all the possibilities.
So it’s a skill to hold a question to hold it open for a long time because like I said, we are trained that we are responsible for having answers like that. We’re trained in school. We’re trained by our bosses were trained by the world we value people who have the ready answer. But philosophers know that the real value comes from holding a question exactly the right amount of time. Before you demand an answer.

Donna Hanson: I love that. And it’s some reminds me of something. My husband says, which we talked about how technology in particular has changed how we accept and what we accept as speed, speed to solution, speed to market and he jokes that, you know, now we’re so impatient two minutes noodles take too long.

Jennifer Einolf: That is definitely true. I have a 19 year old and he does not have two minutes. Two minutes. Absolutely.

Donna Hanson: And I think the other thing. Too is we are so pressurize and condition to fast, fast, fast as good but sometimes that can be to the detriment of creativity and considering all opportunities.

Jennifer Einolf: Absolutely. And, you know, circling back to that flash of the patently obvious. That’s where the mistakes happen it’s that we think we know or that we think we’re supposed to know these are enemies of learning. If you think you’re already supposed to know or if you think that you already do know where’s the space to put any new learning. There’s absolutely none. So yeah, sometimes it takes time to go fast that
if you’re really going to do the thing that’s going to move you forward you invest the time here so that it looks like incredible lightning speed once everybody notices what’s happening.

Donna Hanson: Absolutely there. Yeah. Yeah overnight sensation. That 20 years. So you mentioned a design background, Jennifer, can you give me sort of them, you know, the fast track journey. The journey of how you came to be where you are today because you mentioned design, interior design and now you’re an ontological coach how did that progression happen because I’m not necessarily saying a straight line between one to the other.

Jennifer Einolf: And it seems like apples and oranges, doesn’t it. Well, honestly, what happened, I was a commercial interior designer I worked onchospitals and universities and large corporate projects and I loved it. I really enjoyed it. But I realized there were two components to the work that I did one that I absolutely adored and one that I wasn’t too fond of so I got really curious about, well, what other career has the part I like and maybe not the part that I don’t. And the part that I loved was a client would come with a problem and the solution in their hands and say I have this problem and I need you to solve it this way and we would listen, we would listen deeply and we would believe everything they told us and then we would get super curious about what else is true, what else is possible.
That’s coaching, it’s, this idea that you’re honouring the story you’re honouring that the person came from somewhere and understands the problem in this in this way, but that by asking questions and looking at it from a variety of perspectives we can discover what else is true. So I tell people that I went from exterior interior design to interior Interior design. The same principles of honouring your story, but not buying it entirely and getting super curious. It’s the same the same process and it’s deeply, deeply satisfying to be doing it the way I’m doing it right now.

Donna Hanson: And I think the added value that you bring just based on your story is the fact that it’s not a logical necessarily perspective, it’s coming from creative insights. So there’s a balance of logic with creativity. And often that’s something that’s lacking in traditional coaching. There’s maybe. Here’s the process. This is the process that we follow and it’s your fault. If you don’t get the outcome you want, but it sounds like it’s more holistic and taking into account so many other influences and factors, rather than just being cut and dried

Jennifer Einolf: Absolutely. It’s a partnership. Partnerships exists because the two people in the partnership can get more done in that relationship than they could ever get done alone. And so it’s not all on you are all on me. I’m not there to tell you what to do. How could I possibly know what the solution is for your life?

But I’m also not there to somehow just witness you coming up with your own solution. It’s this partnership and it is holistic and it comes from this place of bringing everything that you are inherently innately from birth, whatever that is, and marrying it to everything you’ve learned and then bringing my presence and my curiosity.
And figuring out what else is true, what else is possible and it is it’s bigger than just any prescriptive program. I’ve had clients tell me that
they hired me because they had lot of people telling them that they could get them where they wanted to go and here are the steps and here’s what I did, there’s value in that there’s value in learning from what other people have learned in their path to their destination.

But that’s not coaching necessarily that’s prescriptive and that that can be very damaging to someone who’s busy figuring out their contribution that the one that only they can make and how they’re going to do it. And that’s why it’s important that this includes the whole person.

Donna Hanson: And I think, too, when we think about where we want to go. We often think of it from a linear perspective, we don’t necessarily think about the ebbs and flows because we don’t want to think about the right, we just something passionate. We want to get from here to here and we want to get there in two minutes or less.

Jennifer Einolf: That’s right. And that’s why the design cycle. It’s really more of a spiral. It’s this idea that something shows up and we’re going to respond to it. We’re going to perceive where we are, what the real question how are we understanding the world? How we understand our possibilities? And then we’re going to prepare.

What, how do we prepare for success? How do we run little beta tests to before we do a full implementation? How do we get ourselves lined up and then we do implementation and then there’s the step that everyone forgets. This is the design cycle.

Did it work. What did we learn because that informs the next trip around the cycle and so improvement is really a spiral? I learned that when I had a little kid in the house. And he sleeping through the night. This is great. And then he would circle back around and all of a sudden he’s not sleeping through the night again well it’s different this time but it is a revisiting the same set of issues and he’s just getting better every look. It’s the same thing with us. We are on a spiral of growth, which means we’re going to go higher and we’re going to grow, in depth of wisdom and in skills and all of the experience but it’s not this linear from here to there and often it involves a plateau, you get you get to spend a little more time on one rung of that spiral.

Because that’s where the mastery happens, all of those things. And sometimes it’s an accelerated zoom up three or four levels and that’s awesome too. But that’s an important point that we do have this impatient linear view of how improvement looks and it’s really not in alignment with how improvement actually works.

Donna Hanson: And I think to one of the important things that people forget. Well, there’s two things. The first thing is the journey along the way. You know the person that we become as a result of all these awareness is in insights, because it really helps us you know in a process perspective, it helps us move forward with whatever it is we’re trying to achieve.

But also it creates personal growth because you can’t be the same person at the same as you were at the other end, but you need to know the person you want to be when you get here and you also need to review, when you get there. So you talked about how You know, often, people don’t look back at what worked and what you didn’t know they’re too busy going next, next tick the box. Move on to the next thing, are they?

Jennifer Einolf: Yeah, and it’s also. Conversely, it’s the source of feeling like you’re not enough. Because the dirty little secret is when you start something new that you’ve never done before. And guess what, you’re not enough. You’re absolutely right. And that doesn’t matter, that’s not the point, the point is that you have an ability to learn, you have the skills that you’ve gained to that point, and you have community of people around you to help you resilient. Those are the reasons you’re enough, not because you’re suddenly an expert at this thing. You’re setting out to do. It isn’t until you go up a couple of runs that you’re suddenly enough for what you set out to do. And guess what, now you’re not enough for the next thing. Yay! You get to grow. It’s really interesting. And we and so often I hear people who letting stopping themselves letting that stop them when they say, Oh, I’m not enough. Well, of course, you’re not enough.

Where you were you enough to do your senior paper when you were a freshman, where you enough to do the job you had at the end of your 10 year career when you were sprayed it. It’s such an interesting conundrum that people place themselves in and it’s the converse of what you’re talking about, that the growth is the use. The journey is the point you’re spending a lot of time on the journey and a moment celebrating the achievement.

Shouldn’t you be appreciating the journey since that’s where you’re spending most of your life it. Yeah, I think that’s true and it doesn’t mean that it’s always easier that every part of it is excruciatingly pleasant because it’s not

Jennifer Einolf: But in balance. That’s where the uses. It’s in the journey.

Donna Hanson: Absolutely. Now I know when we spoke off air and you said something to me that really peaked my interest about having this conversation. And that was the concept of making bigger promises to scary a People. It got me curious, what does that mean? so let’s talk about that concept making bigger promises to scarier people?

Jennifer Einolf: Absolutely. So about 10 years ago I found a quote by Eleanor Roosevelt and I will fully misinterpreted the quote I have no idea what the original point was, but what I heard was
Jennifer Einolf: If something scares you. It’s a signal and as long as it’s not going to instantly kill you or land you in jail bad evening.

You pretty much have to do it. And so fear went from a thing that stopped me to a permission to go do the things. Now obviously use some discernment about which kinds of fear, but it was it was a propellant

and then a couple of years ago, I kind of got to the next level of this concept. And that was I have to make bigger promises to scarier people. That’s how I’m going to get bigger. That’s how I’m going to go learn how to be enough. And so I started to do that. I started to apply that sense of I have to do this to some of the people that intimidate me or people who be nothing showed up and it will. What are they going to do? Why are they going to want to talk to me and I make this promise. How am I going to fulfil it? So making offers that lead to promises to scare your people and just like the enough conversation that we just have it’s really interesting who scares me now. Because a lot of the people who scared me three years ago, some of them are friends.

Some of them are clients, some of them. I’ve had great conversations with. So it’s, also is a spiral of reaching for the people that at some point have my attention.

Have my stomach fluttering a little bit, the thought of being in the room with them or talking to them, and especially the thought of in some way, making a promise to them that I’m going to be of service in some way.

It’s, been an amazing ride. It’s been an absolutely amazing ride and it’s led me. I keep an aspirational contact list. I keep a list of people that
I mentioned to my friends. Occasionally, or I put out there like, does anybody know anybody who knows so and so and having that list, it’s, a way of being able to instantly visualize who my scarier. People are
but honestly, some of them. I don’t know who they are. Yet I just know that when I’m in the room with them. I’m going to have that flutter in my stomach and thanks to Eleanor, I’m going to have to talk to them. It’s just the way it is.

Donna Hanson: So from a business perspective, you know that people that might be listening or watching or whatever. And that could be you know that client they have aspired to work with or a joint venture partner. They’re just going on a that I did she beat. I don’t think they’d want to consider something with me. What’s the worst that can happen right?

Jennifer Einolf: Right. And I’ve had experiences where I thought someone wouldn’t want to little me my business at this level, whatever it was and
in one particular case, I was thinking of this person had worked with some this is a client that I work with communication with clarity with their audiences and this is someone who’s regularly on stages in front of tens of thousands of people scary.

And he, I wasn’t thinking that I would even make an offer, because I knew he was working with a really big name. Person in New York, and he came and talked to me and he said, I appreciate the way you are. I love the way you instruct and I want somebody local and I want somebody that I can actually talk to you. I don’t want to be in a room with the scarier person was basically what he was saying, and we were able to forge a relationship, a really great working relationship that’s been going on for three years now.

Jennifer Einolf: Because he didn’t want to go and be impressive. He wanted a relationship with his coach. He wanted to feel comfortable. And so the size I was at the time was exactly what he was looking for. Who knew?

Who knew so they see something in you that you don’t necessarily even understand you’re putting out there and it’s not the metric you think they’re using to evaluate you.

Donna Hanson: And that that’s really important and really interesting because you know, it’s a perception. What we see in others, isn’t it, but often the story that they’re telling themselves internally can be very different and they’re not always congruent and they don’t need to be congruent, I guess, But ideally you want them to be authentic.

Jennifer Einolf: Oh yeah, authenticity, so important and living in integrity have had several experiences recently where I’ve gone to take advantage of somebody offer will not take advantage offer kind of not use that phrase don’t like that. Except somebody offer and when I’ve gotten into the experience. It wasn’t what I was promised or my radar is pinging that maybe this person isn’t living completely in integrity and I’m I’ve realized I that’s not where I want to be. I want to be with people. We talked about authenticity and some people will get like a weapon, but
honestly, you won’t even have to have the same values as me. But if you’re living to your values. That’s a place I want to be, you know, unless our values are so skewed that we just can’t come to Concord, I am
really excited when people are living their truth because if they make a mistake. It’s genuinely a mistake.

It doesn’t come from some place of trying to take advantage and it’s become it’s always been important for me to live that way, but understanding that that’s actually something that I detect when I’m spending time with other people. And that’s important. There’s a lot of ways to be on the planet. And we have to decide which ones we want to support and the people must spend time with professionally, personally.

However, that plays out authenticity and integrity are critically important.

Donna Hanson: I always remember something I heard Seth Godin say once and that was I’m not for everybody. And that’s okay. So recognizing that not everybody is going to like you. Can you do business, your products or services etc. But it’s about finding enough people that do like what you do and that your values and how you do business resonates with them and focusing on them.

Jennifer Einolf: We live in 21st century, which means that on some level we have access to 7 billion other human beings. Is it seven billion seven and a half. I don’t even know. More than I could count in a lifetime.

Which I only need how many people to be effectively contributing to be of service and the exponential value of the person that I help goes to help other people. If I unlock somebody You know, somebody special thing if our coaching relationship ignites them to go do that thing I can have that impact. Exponentially but it’s still only a matter of I don’t have to convince everybody and I’m it’s not even that they won’t like me. There are plenty of people who I love what they’re doing.

I love the way they are, but their offer isn’t something I need or there’s somebody else who’s, way of being. I prefer and I can wish them well I can even support them. It doesn’t even have to be antagonistic. It’s just we don’t all need to work with everybody that’s the best news possible the best as possible.

Donna Hanson: So I want to circle around circle back around to something that you said earlier about clarity. So I wonder why it that human beings often find itself is. Hard to say that clarity, we sort of skirted around that a bit before, what, what’s your take on that.

Jennifer Einolf: It’s really interesting. I think it might boil down to one simple neurological truth, and that is that your brain has one job.
Your brains job is to prove to you that you prove to the world that you are saying and that you are right, and that’s why all of this positive thinking and all of these things come back to this sense that your brain, whatever you tell your brain does important it believes you. And so if you tell your brain that this current way things are, is the only way it can be how is your brain going to get around that? So it’s really hard for us to get past our brains attempts to protect us and to help us. I also think that we have needs, you know, once you’re breathing and you have food and water and shelter. I think our deepest I personally believe our deepest need is significance and we all measure it differently, you know, for a parent. It’s that loving look from the child when they’ve done that, like, amazing judo parenting thing. They just did, or with the CEO, it might be when she’s standing at the stock exchange ringing the bell significance, we define what significance is, but I think we have in common that we need it. And when we

When we take a risk and to be clear when you’re looking clarity means you’re seeing a vision of what isn’t. And you’re yearning in that direction. And in order to take that step, you have to risk your significance. You have to be the only person who can see this thing.

And go and talk about it to people who think you’re not really on the right track. Even people who love you. So there’s a risk and having clarity, you know, when it shows up. Clarity doesn’t exist, just for itself. It’s a catalyst for action. Often, you don’t even know you got clarity until you look around and realize you’ve been in motion for a little while. That’s when you know you got clarity. It’s very rare that you say, oh, now I’m completely clear. Now I’m going to go act. It’s a process and its jet fuel.

So it can it can propel you in a very nerve wracking and dangerous direction so you know so much of what we Get angry with our brains for is really just our brain protecting us and I think one of the best ways to handle that is to thank our brain and say, you know, thank you, thank you me for protecting me. But I am going to choose to make the take this risk. I am going to choose to pursue this this avenue of thought that’s going to lead to seeing something we currently can’t see.

I think we have to honour it, we can’t make it the enemy so many of us are at war with our own safety systems and that’s kind of productive, but
That’s, why we have a hard time with clarity and we have a hard time seeing our stuff we need somebody else who can say well you know from where I’m sitting we need two teams. We need a coach, and we need valued friends who are willing to stand there and say, I have no idea what you’re talking about. But I love you and I know you can do this we need we need those people to allow us to move into that space where it’s clear, but it’s a little bit dangerous.

Donna Hanson: Hmm. So, that sounds like some of the things that you recognize hold people back from what they want to achieve in their business and life. What other sorts of things do you see in your experiences with coaching people? That are just like the little tweaks that that maybe they didn’t see in themselves that can just unlock their potential.

Jennifer Einolf: Yeah, absolutely. Clarity is only clarity, like I said, if it’s sparking action. You know, so you can sit and think and think and think, and I have a pig advocate for deep thoughts and spending time thinking if you don’t kick it into gear doesn’t go anywhere. It’s, really

It’s that significance piece. It’s being willing to risk taking an action and making a mistake, taking an action and being exposed like sticking your I always picture like we have prairie dogs here in the United States. So they sit in these huge Warren. Areas where there’s little holes everywhere. And if you stick your head out of one of them, you’re in danger, and I will swoops down takes you whatever. You have to have the courage to stick your head up and look around. It takes courage, because you are on some level, placing yourself in danger, so comfortable with discomfort are calculated risks, knowing that there’s ways to mitigate the very serious risks but you have to take action. You have to, take action. So it’s this, perceive and then do. That’s why the fourth part of the design cycle is implementation, it’s pursue, you have to go and actually do it because that’s where the real learning happens for the next time around. That’s where the thing gets built

All that it’s all the stuff that happens to prepare is so important, but it’s only important because you’re going to take an action if you’re preparing and you skip the action and you go through another cycle of preparing you haven’t actually done it. So yeah, the kicking it into gear and being ready to be uncomfortable, you know, finding ways to be comfortable with that.

Donna Hanson: So you mentioned the four phases or the four cycles.

Jennifer Einolf: four phases of the cycle. So I reinterpreted the design cycle and in terms of clarity design and the forces phases are provoke something shows up that is either a challenge or an opportunity, you might provoke it external forces might provoke it but now there’s a need for change. So the first thing you do is you perceive. What is my relationship? To what’s possible what Howard. My, how is my language supporting my ability to change how is my body supporting my ability to change how is my relationship with my emotions. And what am I, resources, and what are the obstacles, really. And honestly, what am I, solving for. That’s when you decide what the real experiment is then you go from perceived to prepare and that’s where you prep the path for success you build the team, you do the beta test.

You do the research, you do the brainstorming is actually a part of the prepare, prepare phase because that’s where you start to mediate and decide what the possibilities would look like for implementation and then you go into pursue, you start to implement and at the end of pursue there is that provoke because now you’re moving back through the cycle again and you’re saying, Okay, well, what was provoked by what we learned going through this whole cycle.

And it’s a Lather, rinse, repeat, how it’s? How humans learn? And if we take a deliberate stance and pay attention to that. Then we can make sure that we’re hitting all of the all of the points that make it really effective to do that.

Donna Hanson: And now I’m imagining for some of your clients that might be you help them in to implement that process and then they can read some repay like other things, or they might be clients who just want to have you as a resource run their ideas and get some clarity.

Jennifer Einolf: Absolutely. I mean, I have people who engage me for one part of that cycle. They want an accountability partner, they’re ready to pursue and they want somebody who’s helping them fine tune is they’re doing it. They’re people that there’s the sense that something’s calling them out of the mist and they’re just in the in
The transition between provoke and prepare. They’re just figuring this out and they want somebody to help them lead it that found that that groundwork. So absolutely. It’s, I don’t always talk about the design cycle but it shows up in the work. It definitely shows up in the work and
it’s, you know, one hour at a time. What’s on your mind right now that effects this larger arc of what you’re trying to learn or solve for and plugging that into where are you in this on this path, it’s
yeah, any or all of the pieces because I said it’s life it’s this constant cycle that we’re in, whether we recognize it and take ownership of the pieces or not.

Donna Hanson: So look, we need to wrap up, but you know, I’m pretty confident, we could probably talk for another couple of hours. And I know you have clients, you mentioned around the world. But I also know here in Australia. You do have a number of clients.

Donna Hanson: So for anybody who’s enjoyed the conversation and maybe wants to you know, have a bit of a look at what you can do and maybe consider reaching out and having a conversation to see if you’re a fit. And you know what type of resources or programs you have

Jennifer Einolf: Sure, absolutely. Well, the first thing that I would suggest you do is visit my website at boldwhisper.com And you can use the contact form. I would love to have a conversation with anybody who’s interested in just pursuing the possibility, what might be of use to you right now for moving, moving the needle on where you are in the design cycle. And also, at the same time on that website. If you want to sign up. I put out an article every week there’s 60 some articles on the website. Please sign up. Let’s continue the conversation. And I’d love to be sending you those little insights and hearing back from you about what you think. It’s definitely an ongoing conversation. And just so you know when it’s your time and you’re in your day. I’m in yesterday. So if you want to do over. You can call me in yesterday.

Because I’m on the other side of the planet. And you can call me in yesterday and we can do a do over and you can let me know what my tomorrow is going to look like.

Donna Hanson: Hilarious Jennifer thanks so very much for your time today and for your insights, particularly on making bigger promises to scary people. I love that concept and challenging ourselves.

Donna Hanson: Up for those watching or listening. Thank you so much for joining us on this expert insights episode. Until next time, this is Australian productivity and technology expert Donna Hanson have an amazing week!

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